The Strongest Surgeon’s Knot Strength Test [For Mono & Braid]
- By: Luke Simonds
- on August 24, 2015
- Found In: Fishing Knots, Fishing Tips
“Like a Surgeon, tied for the very first time”… sorry, I couldn’t resist.
In all seriousness, we’ve had quite a few questions coming in about the Surgeon’s knot since we posted our most recent knot contest in which the Surgeon’s knot performed extremely well. So I decided to do some deeper analysis into this Surgeon knot to see just how many wraps are needed to make this fishing knot the strongest possible.
And since mono and braid have such different characteristics, I ran multiple tests on each type of fishing line to determine the most effective method of tying the surgeon’s knot for braid and for mono.
My ultimate goal was finding the most effective amount of wraps to make the Surgeon’s knot the most powerful for mono to mono connections as well as for braid to mono…
Surgeon’s Knot for Mono-to-Mono
Monofilament line has a higher friction coefficient than braid so requires fewer turns in almost all knots compared to its braid counterpart.
When researching the surgeon’s knot for mono to mono, I saw that most videos showed the “Double Surgeon Knot” version… which is simply the Surgeon’s knot with two turns vs. the “Triple Surgeon” that I used in the prior contest.
So I decided to test 3 different variations of the Surgeon’s knot to see which one is best: The Double, Triple, and Quadruple Surgeon’s Knot.
Note: All tests were with the same roll of 10 lb to 30 lb Berkley Trilene fishing line.
Here are the results:
- Double Surgeon knot – broke/unraveled in the 6 lb to 11 lb range
- Triple Surgeon knot – broke in the 11 lb to 15 lb range
- Quadruple Surgeon knot – broke in the 11 lb to 16 lb range
So the results show that increasing the amount of turns in the knot increases the hold strength, but the increases start to become less noticeable once getting in the 3 to 4 range.
After doing this testing, I recommend using either the 3 or 4 turn surgeon’s knot for mono to mono connections because it was significantly stronger than the 2 turn while still being easy and quick to tie.
How to Tie The Triple Surgeon’s Knot
Note: Adding even more wraps can certainly increase strength, but it’ll be tougher to tie, and the increased wraps can increase the odds of the line immediately coming out of the knot to get compromised during the final cinch.
Surgeon’s Knot for Braid-to-Mono
Braid has much less line friction compared to mono so requires more turns in order to not unravel compared to what is needed with a “mono to mono” connection.
So I started this analysis at the Triple Surgeon Knot level and they all unwound once placed under medium pressure… and the same thing happened for the Quadruple Surgeon, so I skipped up to a 6-turn version from there.
Note: All tests were with the same roll of 10 lb PowerPro to 30 lb Berkley Trilene fishing line.
Here are the results:
- Triple surgeon knot – all unraveled in the 6 lb to 7 lb range
- Quadruple surgeon knot – all unraveled in the 7 lb to 9 lb range
- 6 turn surgeon knot – all broke in the 13 lb to 19 lb range
How to Tie The 6-Turn Surgeon’s Knot
Note: Adding even more turns can certainly increase strength, but it’ll be tougher to tie and the increased wraps can increase the odds of the line immediately coming out of the knot to get compromised during the final cinch.
Conclusion
The Surgeon’s knot is an easy knot to tie and it has a very high breaking strength when tied properly according to the amount of friction that the lines possess…
For mono to mono connections, using 3 to 4 wraps is ideal…
And when braided line is involved, then it’s smart to use at least 6 turns in order to ensure that it won’t slip when under max pressure.
Hope you got something out of this, and I would really appreciate any feedback, comments, questions, or alternative knots that you want me to test out.
P.S. – If you think your angler friends or fishing groups would like this, please Tag them or Share this post with them. It would mean a lot to me!
Fish On!
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I find the mono-to-mono( or floro) quad surgeon knot best of all and i do it for loading a casting reel leader or top shot (typically 14-20lb main line to 40-60lb leader) with leader lengths of of between 20 and 100 feet. what? a leader THAT long? easy, just make the loop large enuf to allow passing through the entire spool of heavier mono/floro. 🙂
I use a 6x surgeon knot instead of a Bimini twist knot for doubling my main lines. I start by tying my snap swivel with a Palomar knot (double Palomar with braid) . Then I tie the 6x surgeon knot. It’s got so many twists in it that you need put a little bit of silicone grease on it and use a dowel on the main line side and small srewdriver on the snap side to tighten it. Get it about about 1/4 started, where you can see the twists really good. Apply the super lube, spit will not work. Wrap main line and tag together on the dowel. Put small screw driver through the snap. Slowly pull till it’s about 3/4 finished and then jerk it tight really fast.
It’s stronger than a Bimini twist, because it doesn’t deform the line in the process of tying and there’s no twisting of the loop.
It’s so clean.
What line were you using when you tested them? The reason I ask is because I tested the 6 turn Surgeon knot against other popular braid doubling knots like the Spider Hitch & Bimini Twist, and the Bimini came out on top. I was using 10 lb PowerPro for the test. Here’s a link in case you’d like to see it: https://www.saltstrong.com/articles/strongest-knot-for-doubling-braid/
Sir,
For mono to mono (30lb to 50lb) connection, how does the Surgeon’s Knot compare to the Alberto?
Thanks!
The Alberto is better known for braid to mono/fluoro connections. For mono to mono, I like the double uni best of all.
Thank you, Sir.
My reasoning was that if a knot works for braid, it probably works for mono even better, due to increased friction. But, I could be off in my logic. I was just curious if by chance you had the numbers that I could look at.
Luke. The surgeon’s knot is the knot I have been using for years. I have had conversation with you on the phone ( Did not know the name ). And have done some finishing that may improve the knot!!!After tying the 6 turn surgeon’s knot. And cinching the knot pull the tag ends twards the knot one at a time to tighten the coils. Than with the braid tag end make 4 half hitches around both the braid and the mono. Than cut the mono Than 4 half hitches around the braid just like YOU DO THE FG. Finishing off the knot gives a straighter pull to the weak point. And makes the knot more weedless
Thanks for making time to leave the helpful comment about improving the Surgeons knot.
Luke,Thanks for taking the time to review My comment
Looking on the Internet I came across the. GT knot and there are many variations. One starts with the FG And instead of a hitch ends with a Uni Knot. Another starts with a figure 8. To a uni. With the use of these variations. And Your Abilities in Knot tying !!! You may find something. To improve the FG Knot
After reviewing the GT knot, I’m convinced that it’s not as strong as the FG knot given that it’s essentially a combination of the Slim Beauty knot and the Uni Knot… both of which are significantly weaker than the FG knot.
Thanks For Taking Your time To Look into and explain The Breakdown of this knot
I finally had some time to do some research and testing on the GT knot… here’s what I found: https://www.saltstrong.com/articles/gt-knot/
You keep mentioning your testing, but when you mention testing and have links, I have yet to find any testing data — just your relative assessment of the order of knot strengths. Do you have such data, and explanation of your testing methods? If so where can I find it.
Speaking of methods, the method by which you test a knot’s strength is very important. Of particular importance is how the force/load is applied is extremely important. A knot might have very high strength with the force is applied very gradually, but that same knot might break at much lower force when the force is applied very suddenly (impulse is the engineering term).
As an example, some years ago when I was doing research on yellowfin tuna aggregation around deepwater oil platforms offshore of the Mississippi delta (out of Venice, L with perhaps the best yellowfin guide in the area), we took aboard a New Orleans outdoors fishing writer who was himself an expert fisherman (specializing in large redfish).
Because the captain knew that the writer was an experienced fisherman, he let the writer serve as something of a mate while we were seeking to catch and tag yellowfin tuna. Our tackle was 6/0 class with 100# hollow braid, spliced to a long shot of 60# mono. The captain normally used his personally developed snell knot to tie the circle hook for our live bait fishing.
However, the writer, instead used a Palomar knot to tie the hook to the mono. When I asked him about using the knot, the writer raved about how strong the Palomar was in his redfish fishing. However, two times when we had sudden hits from yellowfin, the leader broke at the hook. We had not had that happen in many trips with the captain, and the captain said he never had the snell break at the hit before. Needless to say that was the last time the captain let the writer tie a hook onto a leader
The Palomar is often cited as a very strong knot. However, after that experience I did some unscientific testing of Palomar knots. Like I said above, I found (using a spring scale) that the Palomar was very strong — except if I pulled very quickly and hard. Then the Palomar broke at much lower pounds on the spring scale compared to a snell or even a clinch knot.
I suspect that the Palomar with so few turns involved can tighten suddenly and cut into itself when the force is applied in a snappy fashion.
You could offer important information to anglers by considering this aspect of knot strength by scientifically designed testing.
Let me know what you think and if you have data. If I can be of help, feel free to ask.
Randy Edwards, Ph.D. (Marine Science — Ret.)
Manatee County, FL
Thanks for making time to leave the comment Randy! I don’t show the tests very often because they make for very boring videos. But here’s one that shows the general tests that I do when testing the knots: https://www.saltstrong.com/articles/albright-vs-alberto-vs-fg-knot/
I generally do a slow pull to be able to see the tension at the breaking point on the scale. But I sometimes to quick tests too to see if there is a different winner (so far, I have not yet seen a knot’s performance change relative to any other based on how quick the load tension was applied).
As for what you found with the Palomar vs. the Snell, the core lesson that I’ve learned after testing a ton of knots is that the one that does the best at spreading the tension load across as much surface area as possible is the one that wins… so the snell should absolutely be stronger than the palomar.
Do you like this more than the double uni for braid to mono? Thanks
Hi Luke,
l enjoy watching your how to videos. i grew up in South Florida on Snook and Tarpon. but now i live in Kennesaw, Georgia where i drive weekly to the Tennesee River for Stripers (Rockfish). I use a 9-6 Surf Rod, Penn slammer iii 5000; Conflict 2 5000, Quantum Smoke 50; spooled with 30 lb. Power Pro Hi-Vis yellow so I can see my line in the river, therefore i have to use a long mono leader at least 3 to 4 ft. of 30 lb. test and am throwing 1 1/2 to 2 oz. Buck-tails. Our fish range mostly 14-30 lbs. Luke, I have always used 30 lb. braid to 30 lb. mono tied with a 3 wrap surgeons knot and it will hold big fish fish over 30 lbs. including including 5ft. long Paddle fish. The problem i have with the Surgeons knot is that the more wraps you tie the bigger the knot gets, and with a long leader, like what I use up here 3ft. it can do a lot of damage on the eyes of a Rod. But if you tie a Surgeons Knot with 3 wraps and leave a significant amount on the tag end to cinch it tight and then trim it, you shouldn’t have any problem with a 3 wrap Surgeons knot breaking. Anyway Luke. love your videos and just thought I would give my two cent field advice on my favorite fast and easy Mono to braid knot; the Surgeons Knot.
Thanks once again, for the “how to” videos.
Gary
I’ve used the 6 loop knot to connect braid to a flouro leader with great success. I have caught multiple Yellowtail, rock fish, Calico bass… So easy and it works. Not as low profile as some other line to line connections, but the easiest to tie and it performs very well. Thanks!
Hi Luke ,
Surgence Knot sure easier than FG knot to tie, but I know I have not brock off a line for 30 fish caught this season in grass and
potholes . Nice to know both knots . Using 10 LB Spider Braid and 30 pound Berkley fluorocarbon . Spanish Mackerel on 1/4 ounce Johnson Silver/ Bronze spoons used lately.work magic on the Spanish… Will be trying ProLine 10 IB braid soon Luke.
Cheers ,going to be selling my 1998 Yamaha 60hp 2 stroke and controls soon on craigslist.Going to buy a 40 hp 4 stroke .
Cheers always Luke
John Martin
I have seen people put crazy glue or nail polish on line to leader knots. They say it helps if the knot goes through the guide. What do you think?
I do not recommend using nail polish or glue on knots because they can crack as the knots constrict leaving sharp edges in the knot that will damage the line.
Use the uv sense knot glue. Even once it cracks it is flexible and will not damage anything. It allows you to have a tapered leader instead of line, knot , line.
This is very helpful! I’ve been using braid for several years now and still struggle with knots. I like the surgeon knot for its speed and simplicity, but I have trouble with lighter lines. 15# PowerPro and 20 to8# 40 pound fluoro is a snap and three turns work reliably for me. When I go to lighter lines, like 10# PowerPro and 12# fluoro, 8# PowerPro and 12# fluoro with a three turn surgeon, the leader breaks at the knot. I’m eager to try more turns on the surgeon with the lighter lines. My biggest challenge is 5# PowerPro and 12# fluoro – about the only way I can get any knot to hold is to make a double line with a spider hitch and then use a double uni for the braid to fluoro. Any suggestions?
Just curious why you did not pull on the tag ends also at the end of the knot? Will that not help to cinch the knot tighter .
Pulling the tag end does not seem to help it out so I skip that step.
I just wanted to say thank you for a well thought-out comparison of knot performance, and videos on how to tie them. Since I’m taking the plunge and I’m trying braided line for the first time, your comparison of knot strength taught me a lot.
Wishing you continued success
Marty B.
Our pleasure Marty! Please keep us in mind for future fishing apparel needs because we offer top quality gear that’s Made in the USA: https://shop.saltstrong.com.
Hey Eric, thanks for making time to leave the comment. I think your doubled line version will end up being the stronger option for the surgeon knot, but I’d like to test it out to see how much stronger it will be.
As for diameter, the two knot approach will allow for less friction when reeling the knots into the guides since the small braid doubling knot goes through first before the main surgeons knot.
Most importantly, you raised a great high level question… is it better to double the lighter main line to then tie a doubled-braid to leader knot? or can a single knot be as strong?
I’ll make that be my next knot contest and will be sure to send you the results once I post them.
Fish On!
I’ve had real good success with the alberto knot. Its quick easy and for braid to mono 7 wraps cant be beat
Yes, the Alberto Knot is a good option for both braid to mono and mono to mono… I’ll be doing an in-depth analysis on that one for each line type soon. Fish On!
I fly fish and have also tested. For me, a 5 loop mono to mono s.n. = a barrel not. 0 failures!
Good stuff Robert, and a big thanks for sharing. I will pass this on to Luke to add to our knot contests. Fish on !
Hi Luke, Thanks for a great show. I’m not at all surprised by the results of the Surgeons knot. A few years ago an Australian by the name of Mad Dog Roiter visited South Africa (S.A.) to promote the Berkley products and he swore by this knot. He landed a monster GT using this knot. This knot is used extensively by the fishing guides in Mozambique. In S.A. a popular knot is the double figure of eight. It would be really great to test this out with the Surgeons knot. I could send you instructions on how to tie this if you need it. Regarding the Allbright would ending of the knot with a half hitch or two not improve the strength? I have used the Yucatan knot to join mono to mono of uneven diameters previously because it forms a small knot that is guide friendly. Any views on this?
Regards
Harold