The Strongest Surgeon’s Knot Strength Test [For Mono & Braid]
- By: Luke Simonds
- on August 24, 2015
- Found In: Fishing Knots, Fishing Tips
“Like a Surgeon, tied for the very first time”… sorry, I couldn’t resist.
In all seriousness, we’ve had quite a few questions coming in about the Surgeon’s knot since we posted our most recent knot contest in which the Surgeon’s knot performed extremely well. So I decided to do some deeper analysis into this Surgeon knot to see just how many wraps are needed to make this fishing knot the strongest possible.
And since mono and braid have such different characteristics, I ran multiple tests on each type of fishing line to determine the most effective method of tying the surgeon’s knot for braid and for mono.
My ultimate goal was finding the most effective amount of wraps to make the Surgeon’s knot the most powerful for mono to mono connections as well as for braid to mono…
Surgeon’s Knot for Mono-to-Mono
Monofilament line has a higher friction coefficient than braid so requires fewer turns in almost all knots compared to its braid counterpart.
When researching the surgeon’s knot for mono to mono, I saw that most videos showed the “Double Surgeon Knot” version… which is simply the Surgeon’s knot with two turns vs. the “Triple Surgeon” that I used in the prior contest.
So I decided to test 3 different variations of the Surgeon’s knot to see which one is best: The Double, Triple, and Quadruple Surgeon’s Knot.
Note: All tests were with the same roll of 10 lb to 30 lb Berkley Trilene fishing line.
Here are the results:
- Double Surgeon knot – broke/unraveled in the 6 lb to 11 lb range
- Triple Surgeon knot – broke in the 11 lb to 15 lb range
- Quadruple Surgeon knot – broke in the 11 lb to 16 lb range
So the results show that increasing the amount of turns in the knot increases the hold strength, but the increases start to become less noticeable once getting in the 3 to 4 range.
After doing this testing, I recommend using either the 3 or 4 turn surgeon’s knot for mono to mono connections because it was significantly stronger than the 2 turn while still being easy and quick to tie.
How to Tie The Triple Surgeon’s Knot
Note: Adding even more wraps can certainly increase strength, but it’ll be tougher to tie, and the increased wraps can increase the odds of the line immediately coming out of the knot to get compromised during the final cinch.
Surgeon’s Knot for Braid-to-Mono
Braid has much less line friction compared to mono so requires more turns in order to not unravel compared to what is needed with a “mono to mono” connection.
So I started this analysis at the Triple Surgeon Knot level and they all unwound once placed under medium pressure… and the same thing happened for the Quadruple Surgeon, so I skipped up to a 6-turn version from there.
Note: All tests were with the same roll of 10 lb PowerPro to 30 lb Berkley Trilene fishing line.
Here are the results:
- Triple surgeon knot – all unraveled in the 6 lb to 7 lb range
- Quadruple surgeon knot – all unraveled in the 7 lb to 9 lb range
- 6 turn surgeon knot – all broke in the 13 lb to 19 lb range
How to Tie The 6-Turn Surgeon’s Knot
Note: Adding even more turns can certainly increase strength, but it’ll be tougher to tie and the increased wraps can increase the odds of the line immediately coming out of the knot to get compromised during the final cinch.
Conclusion
The Surgeon’s knot is an easy knot to tie and it has a very high breaking strength when tied properly according to the amount of friction that the lines possess…
For mono to mono connections, using 3 to 4 wraps is ideal…
And when braided line is involved, then it’s smart to use at least 6 turns in order to ensure that it won’t slip when under max pressure.
Hope you got something out of this, and I would really appreciate any feedback, comments, questions, or alternative knots that you want me to test out.
P.S. – If you think your angler friends or fishing groups would like this, please Tag them or Share this post with them. It would mean a lot to me!
Fish On!
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Luke, I believe you have stated in other videos that I have watched that the FG knot is only good for tying heavier mono leader (e.g.20 lb) to lighter braid line (e.g. 10 lb). If tying 20 lb mono leader to 20 lb braid, presumably the 6-turn surgeon’s knot is what you would use?
Thanks,
Bill
Although the 6-turn surgeon knot has proven to be very strong, I don’t personally use it because it’s bulky and it can be tough to cinch down properly with all of the coils on two very different lines. If I ever did go with a 20 lb braid to a 20 lb leader (which is not a combo I use), I’d go with the crazy alberto knot.
Luke, thank you for the reply. Just trying to figure out how to use what I have until I can obtain and put together a setup like that which you recommend with the 10lb braid and 20lb mono leader. I really respect your opinion and all the testing you have done. Be assured that in the future I will apply all that I am learning from Salt Strong. Such a wealth of knowledge. You guys are the best!!
Thanks William!
Did you do any data on the knot breaking at X% of line test strength/
That is very tough to do because measuring the exact breaking strength of a line requires a very expensive tool.
Did I tie it wrong because I got the tag end of the line at the reel and tag end of line at the spool and tied with ease without moving the spool or any part at all
Used 12lb fluorocarbon
With thin line, it often is very easy to tie so having it cinch down easily is not a bad thing. Perhaps test it out by pulling until it breaks to see how much tension it can hold?
This doesn’t seem to be a surgeon’s knot. Apparently fishermen use a different name?
At least, this doesn’t look like the wikipedia surgeon’s knot, and it tied completely differently. Do they somehow end up being the same knot? Or is it just different terminology?
Dear Guest, assuming you are around and still interested, the surgeon’s knot shown on Wikipedia is the same knot. However the wikipedia knot shows the second knot the surgeon ties over the initial surgeon’s knot. A surgeon’s knot is merely the first part of the knot that lies against the skin. Normally a surgeon uses a regular overhand knot with an additional pass around the suture as their first tie. The beauty of this action is that the friction in the knot holds tightly without slipping while the second regular overhand knot, that will be tightened down on the surgeon’s knot, is being assembled with the suture ends. The initial knot with 3 turns is good for using when tying a package or such if you want the strings to stay tight until you can add an additional knot on top of the 3-pass knot. The fishing surgeon’s knot is the first tie a surgeon would make, but with more turns and with overlapping lines that are to be joined. Clear as mud?
Thanks for posting the helpful comment William!
Glad to help, Luke. Can you answer my question about joining 20lb mono to 20lb braid at the beginning of the post?
Thanks,
Bill
Please consider comparing the GO2 knot to the surgeon’s knot and the uni knot for braid to mono connections
Just curious Luke. Have you ever tried the braid to mono WITHOUT cutting the leader first and laying the two lines parallel when starting?
It’s much more difficult when you don’t cut the leader first because you’ll then have to thread the full spool through the knot.
I am really struggling with the FG knot.
I keep the braid taught. And wrap the mono, forward, backward, pulling the mono taught after each turn
But the knot seems to simply bunch up on itself. The braid doesn’t form a long “line” down the mono. So I just get a big blob of line!
Getting very frustrated and thinking of switching to a double uni.
What lines are you using?
If you are getting frustrated, don’t bother with it. Use a double uni or surgeons knot and be happy. For the normal angler ( not Luke) the difference will NEVER be noticed. Use an acceptable knot that you tie well rather than a great knot that you can’t tie. This is supposed to be fun, not a job!
I had the same problem with braid to mono. The solution is to pull the mono tight after each wrap.
Thanks for posting the helpful comment Rick!
My FG knots come unraveled every time I tie them. I’ve watch the video numerous times and I’m still making a mistake. I triple tie the braid when done and it’s not working.
What lines are you using?
I listened to my wife once and lathered down with sunscreen while fishing in the gulf. Even though I was using heavy line my knots were pulling out. Don’t let that mess get on your hands and line or your knots won’t hold and you will be lucky to get any bites!
Are you locking up at the right time? Finish the wraps, do one hitch around leader and main, then grasping main and leader pull gently apart with even pressure with a bit of saliva to lubricate. Thats the crucial bit. After that there seems to be any number of ways to finish but essentially you should be ‘locked’ at that point. Finish with 3 standard locked hitches usually enough, and if careful melt tag ends with lighter.
Then use the double uni or surgeons knot and be happy
Fred – If you never cast your knot through the guides the FG is not necessary. Better to use a knot you can tie properly. When I am on the water I use an ugly line to leader knot that probably doesn’t test too well , but I can tie with the boat rocking and wind blowing. And I have arthritis and poor vision and this knot has not failed me. It is more important to have fun and catch some fish than being an expert knot tier
thanks I’ve been looking into a new knot especially when its windy. I do freshwater bass fishing but like your videos. Thanks
Just looked at the tests for the triple surgeon’s knot and it will be my new go to leader to tippet knot. Thank you!
BUT I am a bit confused. What is/was the *measured* (not rated) breaking strength of the leader with *no knots*?
Thanks!
I am not sure because the true measured breaking strength requires a very expensive line tester, and I have not seen anyone test that line in one of those devices.
Would it not be a reasonable test to use the rubber coated tube on both ends of the line and have it wrapped a dozen times to prevent slipping and test the breaking strength of the line? That should provide a baseline reality check for the line strength without having a hard bend to decrease the strength.