Non Slip Loop Knot vs. Canoe Man Loop Knot: Surprising Contest Results
- By: Luke Simonds
- on January 7, 2021
Do you use a loop knot when rigging your artificial lures?
Then you’ve got to see these shocking non slip loop knot vs. canoe man loop knot results.
Normally, when I test two knots or types of line against each other, they’re pretty comparable.
But one aspect of this test was a real eye-opener (especially for those people who use fluorocarbon and the canoe man loop knot).
See the surprising results of this experiment in the video below.
Non Slip Loop Knot vs. Canoe Man Loop Knot [VIDEO]
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Gear used:
- 20 lb. Ande Monofilament
- 20 lb. Seaguar Blue Label Fluorocarbon
- Mission Fishin Jig Head
- Z-Man Slam Shady
Here are the full results of the experiment:
How the canoe man performed with fluorocarbon vs. monofilament is one of the biggest differences in performance I’ve seen in a knot contest.
The canoe man loop knot was about 20% stronger when tied with monofilament than it was when tied with fluorocarbon.
And to make sure it wasn’t just a fluke with one brand, I used three different types of fluorocarbon.
So if you like to tie the canoe man loop knot, I definitely recommend going with monofilament.
But if you’re stuck on fluorocarbon, then I definitely recommend using a non slip loop knot.
Here are some other notable results:
Canoe Man Loop Knot vs. Non Slip Loop Knot (Tied With Monofilament)
These two knots were roughly the same strength when tied with monofilament (the canoe man was slightly stronger).
Using Saliva With Monofilament
Knots that were tied with monofilament where I did not use saliva were 5% stronger than knots where I did use saliva when cinching it down.
When using fluorocarbon there was just a 1% difference in strength, so as it turns out, you probably shouldn’t use saliva when cinching down your knots.
Cost of Monofilament vs. Fluorocarbon
Here are the costs per yard of the lines I tested:
Ande Monofilament (20 lbs): $0.10/yard
Seaguar Blue Label Fluorocarbon (20 lbs.): $0.40/yard
Seaguar Premier Fluorocarbon (20 lbs.): $0.46/yard
Yo-Zuri Fluorocarbon (20 lbs.): $0.43/yard
So even though fluorocarbon is 4x more expensive per yard, monofilament is actually stronger.
Plus, monofilament is more abrasion resistant, too.
Conclusion
I love finding surprises in my experiments like the canoe man loop knot – fluorocarbon relationship here.
It just goes to show that experiments like this are necessary if we want to be sure were armed with the best knots and gear when going fishing.
You can get Ande monofilament from our shop here.
Did this experiment surprise you?
Which of these knots do you prefer?
Which of these lines do you use?
Let me know down in the comments!
And if you have any questions or suggestions about this experiment, leave those down in the comments too!
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Please check 3-turn Surgeons Loop knots with your awesome test rig. I have been using a Surgeons Loop Knot with three turns for tying jigs as shown by Richard Gene on YouTube, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXqIPXWbk-4 Based on my rudimentary breaking tests with knots on each end of 20-Lb mono, the Surgeons Loop seems a little stronger than the Non-slip Loop. I ran some tests with the same type knot on each end of the line. The break strength indicated by the 50-Lb scale that I used varied with how fast I applied the force, but the Surgeons loop seemed to be stronger by a pound or two. The break point with two Surgeons Loops was always between the knots. With two Non-slip Loops, each break point was next to a knot on the outside. I ran more tests with a Surgeons Loop on one end of the mono and a Non-Slip Loop on the other. The Non-Slip Loop knot broke first each time, and the break points were always next to the knot on the outside. All knots for the tests were tied and tested dry.
Was the Fluor leader or regular line? I am still not convinced that mono is really so much more visible in the water. Mono caught a lot of fish before Fluor.
Please address line twist. It is my all-time frustration.
Mark sosin used a hufnagel loop knot. I wonder how that knit compares to the loop knot you use. I’ve been using the hufnagel loop knot for over 20 years. But, I’ve never given a thought to how strong it is in comparison to other loop knots. Maybe you could test it sometime? Thanks for the info
BTW Luke. You should do a comparison between the visibility of line tied dry vs line tied wet. Just a thought.
I mango fish a lot. They are some of Gods most cautious fish in the water. Still rather use Fluor and definitely will still wet the line before I tighten the knot because I feel if not you cause abrasion to the line when it is tightened, therefore making it more visible to the fish. I tell my kids in fishing school all the time, the fish ain’t looking at your fancy rod snd reel. He is looking at your terminal tackle, and that can make or break you.😄 Thanks for all y’all do Luke. Bama Dave
Very telling comparisons. Just blow up all my understanding.
Thanks for keeping us informed
Thanks for this video and the relevant info. Much appreciated, and I always come away from these sessions feeling as though I have the potential to be a better fisher. One Comment I will put forward, though is that I always thought that the real idea / reason behind employing Flourocarbon in the terminal tackle equation had little or nothing or much less to do with strength and everything to do with the fact that it was much closer to invisible to the fish. On this basis I would much rather take your input in this video to heart and go from 17# to 20# flouro rather than change back to mono. I guess I am also saying I am prepared to spend a bit more for the flouro than the mono. BUT, I am also prepared to spend a bit more and buy a dependable Shimano reel, a bit more and put ethanol free fuel in my little outboard, a bit more and buy good quality apparel to protect me from the sun. And so on. Sometimes I just have to bite the bullet and cry only once. Thanks for hearing me out.
The core question is if fluoro actually is less visible in water than traditional mono. Their marketing essentially claims that it’s invisible and stronger than traditional lines, so I paid extra for it for many years.
That all changed once I started test the strength characteristics and found that their claims were not accurate (traditional mono has won every time I’ve tested knot strength and abrasion resistance).
The visibility factor is much tougher to prove (both that it works or doesn’t work), so I’ve instead had to rely on a long-term usage of both lines to see if I could notice a difference in fish caught per trip. So for a couple years, I’d switch back and forth from mono to fluoro. During that time, I couldn’t see a noticeable difference either way so I’ve now switched to 100% mono and I haven’t had issues of getting outfished by people I’m fishing with who are using fluoro (even when down in the FL Keys with very clear water).
Given that there are so many variables at play in the “visibility tests”, all I can claim is that you absolutely don’t have to spend the extra money to catch fish.
I would love to see a test between Ande Backcountry CoPolymer blue vs. Ande Mono Premium lines in line strength. I tested for Ande years ago and was on their Pro-Staff and when the Backcountry line came out I was very impressed with it and switched from their premium line as leaders to Backcountry. I was told that there is no difference between the leader spool line and the regular spool line other than the diameter of the spool that the lines are on. Please confirm if you can. Based on that, I buy 1/4 pound spools of Backcountry and use it as my leaders. Prior to switching to braid I used Ande Tournament for my main lines. Thanks.
I’ll be sure to keep an eye out for their backcountry line.
How bout a EZ way to remove your treble hooks with out getting harpooned
It does seem that much of the testing you did with 20# leader is much to do about almost nothing…unless you are talking about freshwater fishing. In saltwater, 20# mono is almost never used as leader, unless you are tying 20# mono to braid to fish for something like spotted seatrout…using the mono just because it is less visible than the braid. Most of the time, fisherment like me use at least 25-30# mono leader tied to something like 8-15# mainline. So the fact that the knot in the 20# leader breaks at 16 lb is inconsequential, and 16 lb is far stronger than you would ever need for inshore fish if you do not need the heavier mono because of potential brasion by the fish’s mouth.
Randy – u seem an expert here. Why do they break less than 20lb? Seems like false advertising!
Neither knot is suitable for mono.
Knots for mono will not rely on crossing line. Line then self cuts.
Mono knots use many coils lying in contact, side by side to provide rubbing friction. Also, loop to any metal not much larger in diameter is also problematic.
People don’t use eye thimbles or Flemish twists just because they are satifying to assemble, even though they are.
Pound-test of fishing line is established by putting a force (strain in engineering terms) on a line that is held (usually by wrapping many turns around a cylindrical mandrill), such that there are no turns compressing (cutting into) or abrading the lilne. Any knot will cause compression and/or abrasion, thus causing the line to break at the knot (unless there are weak spots in the line) when less force than the pound-test is applied.
The reason I used 20 lb line in this case is because two two leaders I most often use are 20 lb and 30 lb for inshore fishing. I use them both with a 10 lb braid, so it is very rare that the loop knot on a 30 lb braid is the weak point when I get stuck on structure and have to break off… conversely, the loop knot breaks every time when I’m using the 20 lb leader and 10 lb mainline and get snagged on the bottom.
So I thought I’d first focus on the 20 lb line since any improvements on it would improve the overall line strength.
As we know, a properly set drag should ensure that we never lose a fish that’s hooked in open water (assuming that at least a decent knot is used). So these tests are more about handling out of the norm tension loads like when having to stop a hooked fish from getting into structure or having to power pull out of a snag where the increased strength will help retrieve more lures.
Luke,
I am glad that you have that new line/knot testing apparatus It is far better than what you used in the past. There still are some engineering considerations, but they are too long to discuss here.
More pertently, your continued testing of knots wetted by saliva versus those tied dry has a basic experimental flaw. If you tie a knot, pull it tight after wetting it (with saliva), it will still be wet when yoiu test it if you test it right after tying it. However, if you tie a knot without wetting it with saliva, and then fish with it … it will be wet from the water when it would be exposed to its breaking strength.
Certain types of knots that rely on friction might be weaker when wet — by water or by saliva — because slipping. Others might be weaker when tied without wetting, because of abrasion when the knot is drawn tight.
Thus, the only way to do a fair test of wetted by saliva versus not wetted by saliva would be to test with the knot wetted by water — like it is when it is being fished.
My suggestion is that you could do that by tying the knots wetted and not wetted during tying, then — after they are tied, test the with your new testing machine while both knots are wet…perhaps by wetting them with water and keeping them wet with wet toilet tissue when you test them in your apparatus.
Randy Edwards, Ph.D. (Marine/Fishery Biology, and Gator Engineering graduate)
Thanks so much for making time to leave the helpful suggestions Randy! I forgot to mention in this experiment that I added a step in between the cinch and break of the knot where I soaked them both in water for the exact same time (about 5 seconds of full immersion)… I soaked them immediately before breaking them to make them as wet as I could without having to do the full break underwater.
Do you think that the 5-seconds duration is good, or should I switch the procedures around to soak for a longer period of time?
It would seem that a simple 5-second wetting does not at all simulate what really happens in the water. First, the water could easily drip off after the wetting, or at least the knot would not be uniformly wetted. Additionally, an actual leader knot would be soaked and would absorb a lot of water while being in water while fishing. It has been well documented that mono weakens after soaking in water. The effect of that weakening and the effect of it on the friction within the knot is unknown and is not simulated by a 5-second wetting.
I typically use 30# Ande for leader, except in very clear water where I will move down to 25# and take the risk of being “chewed off” by a large snook or other toothy fish. My mainline is almost always 8# mono, and never more than 15#, so I do not see any reason to worry about whether my leader knot is 70% or if it is 75% of 30 or 25 pound-test. Also, I tie the loop knot with only one time around the standing line of the leader. It makes a much more compact knot that surely is less strong than with three times around. That has never been a problem to me. But if I were to be fishing 20# braid, I would use the 3-times-around version of the loop knot.
Thanks for the tips Randy! I’ll make sure to soak the knots in water for a much longer period to make sure that variable is accounted for.
Back in the ’50s the UK norm for line / knot testing already involved a 24hr. pre-soak. The other mantra, gob but DO NOT over tighten, just pull on the main line but on the tag only to shape. Shape will also, generally, be slightly conical.
I have just used a simple bowline knot for my loop. Simple and easy. Any thoughts on its strength?
I’ll make sure to test this out.
Oh for the loop knots thank,that’s helpful to me.I see.
Thanks for making time to leave the nice comment Richard!
Uuh ok this totally out of the subject, does anyone of you guys know, why the tides have been so low lately. I mean some areas I usually fish have been almost dry ! Most people I ask don’t have an answer. Haven’t been full time fishing long. Don’t mean to blind site yous.
It’s the winter lunar pull. Stronger during winter and current N to NE winds are pushing water out also
Impressive and thought-provoking. It’s interesting companies like Berkley and others have detailed knot-tying guides that continue suggesting to lubricate the knot. Have you considered linking these results to Berkley or the IGFA for input? You might want to test dry & wet methods for braid/mono connections as some anglers may conclude the dry method works in all knot tying situations (and maybe it does)? Always great curiosity and effort, Luke. Many thanks.
Thanks for making time to leave the nice comment Rob! I definitely can’t claim that dry beats wet for all knots… but after this test, I am confident in making that claim for these two knots.
WOW! Eye Opener! Are you also comparing Diameters as well? I’ve found it to be easier to knots with smaller diameter leaders. Am I full of Mud again 😉 Great Testing & Thanks so much
This test did not equate diameters… the fluoro was slightly thinner in this case. The fluoro was less flexible than the slightly thicker mono, so the knots were actually a bit easier to tie with the mono. But when using the same lines, the thinner ones are almost always easier to tie.
Japanese rule on this.
Use a tiny split ring matched to a tiny Owner GP ring. Tie a double turn Grinner to the elegant GP ring.
Use split ring pliers for instant changes.
Read “Still Water Angling” Richard Walker.
Knots for cable laid cordage rely on crossing lines.
Knots for mono rely on friction between adjacent coils. The definitive knots are the Grinner and it’s junior cousin, the uni.
Use cordage knots with mono, the filaments will either slip or cut each other as you have found.
Saliva to minimise friction but never tighten down on the tag end.
Just tighten enough to shape these coils properly.
Very cool info regarding crossing vs. friction knots that are effective for cordage vs. mono… that makes total sense to an engineer geek like me.
I found Still-Water Angling on eBay and bought it.
Thanks Malcolm!
Thanks for making time to leave the nice comment Malcolm!
What is the difference between the Grinner knot and the Uni knot? All videos that I’ve seen of the Grinner appear to be the exact same as the Uni.
I have used Flurocarbon due to tolerance to abrasion. Structure and oyster shells can play havoc on monofilament. Those are the key thing I look for in Northeast Florida.
So far, all of my abrasion tests of fluoro vs. traditional mono have resulted in the mono coming out on top. Here’s one showing a 20 lb mono beating a 25 lb fluoro: https://www.saltstrong.com/fishing-tip/fluorocarbon-leader-abrasion-test-vs-mono/
What is the difference between
Monofilament and fluorocarbon ?
I have always used mono and don’t know if I should change to the fluorocarbon line. Any and all answers will be appreciated…
Fluoro is supposed to be more “invisible” in the water to fish. I find that fluorocarbon leader stretches less than mono.
Fluorocarbon is more dense than traditional monofilament, and it’s density is closer to the density of water which makes its refractive index closer to that of water… so the scientific reason is that it has less refraction of light while in water which causes it to be less visible. The argument on the other side is that the fish see the reflection of light off of the surface of the line, and there is no scientific evidence of fluoro having better reflection characteristics compared to traditional mono.
Wow! I used the canoe mans knot for years with fluorocarbon. I have already switched to the non slip . I have switched to mono for the most part basically just using up my left over fluoro cause I’m cheap. LOL. I was wondering if you have tested the FG knot like this? I have been a little worried about using it with fluoro cause I remember something about it not working as well on fluoro. Great job and thanks.
Yes, I have tested the FG knot like this… it’s breaking strength is much closer between the two than the loop knots because it does a much better job at spreading the tension load across a wide area (there are no hard turns in the leader so the more brittle fluoro doesn’t get compromised).
I was curious if you had ever compared the Ande mono leader material to the regular Ande’s mono line?
If they are the same just on different spools, the cost savings would be even greater when buying a 500yd or 1000yd+ spool of line.
I’ve wondered this as well. I’d like to see a knot strength test for ande mono leader spool VS. Ande mainline mono to see if there’s a difference. I’d think they’re the same or very similar just more convenient to carry the wrist spool around with the leader. Also I’ve wanted to know if there’s a difference between the types of ande mainline.
Years ago I was told by an Ande employee that the line is the same. Issues with memory on smaller spools had some anglers complain so they put it on leader skeins of larger diameter, thus minimizing the Slinky look, but basically, you can stretch the line like you would a fly line to take the memory out no matter what diameter the spool it comes from. I use the 1/4 pound spool sizes and shove it in a koozie to keep the line from coming off when I don’t want it to.
Thanks for making time to leave the helpful comment!
Excellent useful information. I too will be switching to mono.
Thanks so much!
Glad to see that you liked this video!
You made no comment on whether the line or the knot actually broke first. Curious for confirmation. Also, I have been using the non-slip loop knot but find I am better served if I tie two cinch knots on top of it. You never know if you make a booboo and slip the tag line through the opening in the wrong direction until you cinch it down.
The line breaks right at the top of the knot 99% of the time… the end is a clean break while the knot falls apart since the top of it came apart (at no point did I get a curled pig tail at the end).
Luke, thanks for the very informative video, it was great as always, Tight Lines!
Thanks David!
Excellent
Thanks Derek!
I live in the Northeast where the water tends to be a lot murkier than southern states & according to the best/most successful anglers in our very large salt water anglers club, daytime angling with flourocarbon. line results in a quite a few more strikes than mono or wire, so we’re willing to spend a little more $$ for that.
Night time fishing-mono, flouro, or wire no discernible difference in salt water with striped bass& bluefish, fluke (flounder) & black sea bass don’t seem to care either way.
I’ve also been on fresh water fishing sites here in the N.E. & I was schooled about the advantages of flouro over mono when I thought mono was just as good.
Thanks for making time to leave the comment Brad. I have heard the exact same thing over the past 10+ years, but I had never met anyone who actually did a structured test on mono vs. fluoro. So I was totally blown away as I started testing the two lines to see the regular mono outperform the much more expensive fluoro.
those results are crazy, good stuff, thanks
Thanks Stephen!
Visibility in the water… Is mono more visible than fluorocarbon? This video is quite surprising but I have always heard that fluorocarbon is harder to see underwater. Can you clarify?
That is very tough to prove either way. I switched back and forth from mono to fluoro for about 2 years and I did not notice a difference in fish caught so I have totally switched to regular mono since it’s less expensive and has proven to be better with both abrasion resistance and knot strength.
Great info. You even have me tying the FG Knot.
Thanks Sam! In my opinion, the FG knot combined with the non-slip loop knot are the perfect combo for a mono leader.
Luke,
Any good sailor knows your”canoe knot” is a pure unadulterated old fashioned bowline. We all learned it in boot camp… Read the US Navy book, marlinspike seamanship… I still have my copy, sixty years later.
Thanks for making time to leave the helpful comment Richard!
It is stuff like This, that makes me happy I am a Lifetime member supporting you and SS. Luckily I have used the non-slip loop knot and because I am cheap mostly mono unless I splurge and get the pink usuri. Regardless, I for sure always wet my knot. And now I will knock that off. Maybe a little burn acts as an adherent for the mono? Proof is in the pudding, and zero chance I ever would have done that test. Thanks mucho!!
I’ve found that wetting many mono knots while tying them makes them weaker. Check out this article that quotes a DuPont engineer discussing wet vs. dry knots:
https://flylifemagazine.com/tips-tactics-dont-wet-line-before-seating-a-knot/
Another thing I discovered is that a simple half-twist can result in a significantly weaker knot. For example, if you innocently twist the bight of a Surgeon’s Loop Knot as you’re passing it through the loop a second time, the knot will be 10-20% weaker than if you carefully make sure you don’t introduce any twists in the bight.
Key word ‘carefully’ I too worked at DuPont and frequently when knot testing found that not wetting the line caused crazing that indicated line failure would happen below stated line strength.
👍
Were you able to see the crazing with your naked eye?
Thanks for making time to leave the nice comment Vincent!
I never wet my mono knots, was told fluro needed to be wetted before cinching down years ago.
Great test Luke, never used the canoe knot. But I am switching to mono not throwing the fluorocarbon out its paid for but also not buying anymore.
Glad to see that you enjoyed this video!
Thanks for doing this test, Luke, as I’ve always used the canoe knot, but wondered about it vs the non-slip loop. I’ll stick with the canoe knot, just out of habit, but will be switching to all mono today! Great test!
Glad to see that you enjoyed this video Ted!
Luke.. Thanks for all these experiments you do man its really uncharted territory and I don’t see anyone anywhere doing these type of tests. The proof is in the results. It’s really fascinating, dorky and amazing stuff man I love it, I’m always excited to see these in my email inbox. Keep it up brother!
Thanks so much for making time to leave the nice comment Robert!
Great video, very informative
Thanks for making time to leave the nice comment!
How do they stack up to the Palador knot
The palomar knot is stronger, but these loop knots will help get more strikes given that the loop knots give the lures more freedom of action.
The palomar knot has one downside…it has lower strength when the force is suddenly applied…think yellowfin tuna striking a lure or bait, but might be strong when the force is applied slowly …think redfish hooked on a natural bait. I know this from real experience.
I have used ande mono and love it.
Yeah its great!
Was wondering. Can’t you just use a couple feet of mono or fluorocarbon for leader line off of a larger 150 yd spool of line instead of those over priced small rolls of leader line? I always have left over line to use. Is there any difference in the 2 lines? If no difference, using line from the larger spools would greatly reduce the cost. I do that and have not had an issue.
Yes, the bulk spools seem to have the same line as the wrist spools. I only go with the wrist spools for the convenience of them.
what about spider line and type is it??
thanks
Great video with surprising results!!
Thanks Joe!
Been using the non-slip for years with Mono but, will be tying it DRY !! Thanks Luke !!
I’m glad to see that you enjoyed this test!
Very interesting. The only other interesting variable that you could add as a control is if you could have the line submerged in water while stretching to see the effect on the knot. Not sure if anyone has ever measured breaking strength underwater. Good stuff!
Good point!
My thoughts exactly. The knot is going to get wet regardless
I’m pretty sure IGFA does its line testing (and possibly knot testing too) after the line has been soaked in water for 2 hours.
I was thinking the same thing. Since friction is at play the effects of being submerged while stressed could have an effect. Also trying testing in salt vs fresh, where salinity could be a factor.
I do soak the lines in water before breaking them. The soak time is just for about 5 seconds… I tried soaking for several hours before, and the difference wasn’t noticeable so I go with the quick soak for time convenience.
After scrolling down the comments, I see that you have already made the same point that I just made a day later. Your thinking is very good.
I am so glad you did this! It explains what happened to me a few years back. I was using the Canoe man knot and trying different flouro and was having knot breaking issues. I thought it was the line. Either way I switched to the non slip loop knot and mono line and I can’t remember the last time I’ve had a knot failure. Thanks for this.
Thanks for making time to leave the nice comment Pat!