Should You Use Saliva When Cinching Down Fishing Knots? [Experiment]
- By: Luke Simonds
- on September 11, 2020
- Found In: Fishing Knots, Fishing Tips, Knot Contest, WEEKLY NEWSLETTER: 9-13-20
Do you actually have to use saliva to cinch down a knot?
Back in the day, it was necessary to use saliva with mono because the surface of the line was rougher and less resistant to abrasion.
But fishing lines today are much higher quality than back then…
So the big question is do you still need to use saliva when cinching down knots or not?
I saw in one study that it actually may do more harm than good, but other experienced fishermen claim that it’s still a necessity.
Since there’s a lot of debate out there, I decided to do a test to find out the truth.
I did three rounds of testing knot strength with saliva, and three rounds of testing knot strength without it.
I did that for monofilament, fluorocarbon, and braided line.
The results were very surprising, and now I know how I’ll be cinching down all of my knots.
Check out the full experiment and the results in the video below.
Should You Use Saliva To Cinch Down Your Knots? [VIDEO]
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Are you actually damaging a knot when you use saliva to tie it?
Here are the results of the experiment, measured in the amount of tension required to break the knot:
Fluorocarbon Saliva Test
Fluorocarbon used: 20 lb. Berkley Vanish
Knot used: Non-slip loop knot with two twists
Pre-testing treatment: knots were soaked in water to mimic real-life application.
No Saliva Knot:
- Test #1: 13.05 lbs
- Test #2: 15.66 lbs
- Test #3: 14.80 lbs
- Average: 14.50 lbs
Knot With Saliva:
- Test #1: 15.11 lbs
- Test #2: 13.20 lbs
- Test #3: 11.80 lbs
- Average: 13.37 lbs
Conclusion: The knot without saliva was 8% stronger on average than the knot with saliva.
Monofilament Saliva Test
Monofilament used: 20 lb. Ande Mono
Knot used: Non-slip loop knot with two twists
Pre-testing treatment: knots were soaked in water to mimic real-life application.
No Saliva Knot:
- Test #1: 17.08 lbs
- Test #2: 17.04 lbs
- Test #3: 16.96 lbs
- Average: 17.03 lbs
Knot With Saliva:
- Test #1: 16.48 lbs
- Test #2: 15.97 lbs
- Test #3: 18.45 lbs
- Average: 16.97 lbs
Conclusion: The knots with and without saliva were essentially the same.
Note: notice how much stronger the knots tied with monofilament are than fluorocarbon!
Braided Line Saliva Test
Braided line used: 10 lb. PowerPro
Knot used: Braid uni knot (through the eye twice with 7 turns)
Pre-testing treatment: knots were soaked in water to mimic real-life application.
No Saliva Knot:
- Test #1: 16.67 lbs
- Test #2: 19.29 lbs
- Test #3: 15.54 lbs
- Average: 17.17 lbs
Knot With Saliva:
- Test #1: 21.14 lbs
- Test #2: 16.79 lbs
- Test #3: 19.62 lbs
- Average: 19.81 lbs
Conclusion: The knot with saliva was 12% stronger on average than the knot without saliva.
Experiment Discussion
The surface of the line used to be much rougher, so it was necessary to use saliva to ensure the line doesn’t burn on itself as you cinch it down.
However, fishing lines are made so well these days that that no longer happens, so you don’t need saliva.
And not only do you not need it, but it could actually do more harm than good, as shown by the results of the fluorocarbon and monofilament experiments.
Of course, this is a small sample size in just three rounds of testing each, so we can’t say definitely whether one is better than the other, but I believe it’s safe to say that saliva is at least not a necessity like it used to be.
Also, another thing to notice is that the range of results was greater for all of the knots with saliva than those without it.
So yes, it’s possible that saliva could make a knot stronger, but it’s also possible that it could make a knot weaker.
That’s likely because saliva may make the coils in the knot tighten down unevenly, which could decrease the knot strength.
Conclusion
Although it used to be necessary to use saliva when you cinch down a knot, that’s not the case anymore.
In fact, it might even be worse if you use saliva!
I won’t be using saliva with my knots anymore in hopes of getting a more consistent knot and not risking it be much weaker.
What do you think about these results?
Do you wet your knots down before you tighten them?
Let me know down in the comments.
And if you’ve seen the study about whether or not knots should have saliva on them before you tighten them down, please paste a link to it in the comments below!
Finally, if you know someone who always uses saliva on their knots, please TAG or SHARE this with them!
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So would it be safe to say that if you are tying braided line for terminal knots to use saliva? Then any mono/fluoro knots do without the lick?
Great test! My theory? Thanks for asking btw. I think that if you went to an Italian restaurant the night before, the garlic breath would serve as a nice adhesive. If you went to greazy burger or brat place, saliva becomes too slippery! Haha actually, using your theory on the FG, dry knot might drill into itself whereas wet knot might not dig in as much?
Given how the dry cinch had a more consistent result for all 3 lines that were tested, I’m not going to use saliva for any of these knots (even with braid).
very cool vid. I use a lot of polarmar knots. Could you guys do some vids with polarmar knot?
Thanks Ting! Here’s a recent test we did on the palomar knot in case you haven’t seen it yet: https://www.saltstrong.com/articles/palomar-uni-knot-braided-line-strength-test/
great job as usual, I no longer wet knots , thank you very much
Thanks for making time to leave the nice comment!
Another urban legend bites the dust. Great job
Thanks Sam!
I think that if you went to an Italian restaurant the night before, the garlic breath would serve as a nice adhesive. If you went to greazy burger or brat place, saliva becomes too slippery! Haha actually, using your theory on the FG, dry knot might drill into itself whereas wet knot might not dig in as much?
Haha!!! Sounds like the recent food eaten could very well be a factor.
Yes, I definitely would not recommend saliva on the FG knot given that the braid coils need to dig into the leader as much as possible.
What’s the mechanism for saliva weakening the line?
Here’s a link to see an opinion from someone who is much smarter than me about this subject (beware of the “liar knot”): https://flylifemagazine.com/tips-tactics-dont-wet-line-before-seating-a-knot/
There are enzymes in saliva that start the process of digestion during mastication (chewing). My guess is that these enzymes may weaken the line through breaking it down to some degree.
Luke: Very interesting and surprising test. I would not have expected this and will probably tie my knots without saliva. I do wonder if saliva at 98.6 F temperature would make much of a difference. I assume your glass of water might have been relatively cool. Anyway, keep up these tests as they are very informative. Thank you
I have to imagine that high or low temperatures can make an impact on the results… especially if in an extreme case. Not sure how I could test something like that though.
Would you please run a test using super glue on the knot vs no super glue. Thanks, Norm
What glue do you use on knots?
Probably should do this test with the braid to leader knot also.
I agree… more tests definitely need to be made in order to draw defined conclusions.
Amazing! This was really a 2 beer video. As the resident knot expert I would like to know your opinion on the reason that reducing the friction when cinching reduces the strength of the knot. Have you tried slow-mo video to analyze the knot failure? Interesting test results. Thanks!
Haha! I’m sorry to see that you had to drink two beers to power through the long video:)
Here’s a link to see an opinion from someone who is much smarter than me about this subject (beware of the “liar knot”): https://flylifemagazine.com/tips-tactics-dont-wet-line-before-seating-a-knot/
Good stuff. No more spit. 👍🏼
Glad to see that you enjoyed this test. I’ll be testing out some other knots that require more twists to see how those perform (may or may not have different results).
Hey Luke, show off your North Avenue Trade School skills and show us some stress vs. strain curves and calculate the Modulus of Elasticity for us!
Although my application there was accepted, I ended up going to UF after making a visit to Gainesville and I am so glad that I did because it was an absolute blast.
The calculation of elasticity is way out of my league… I have to result to tying knots and then pull on them until they break.
Go Gators…Randy Edward’s, Ph.D. U. Miami Marine Science but B.E. and B.S. UFL.
Go Gators!!!
Total nonsense. This “fishing forensics” is out of hand. But reading the comments ,I guess if you cant catch fish you’ll need excuses. If your lines breaking at the knots learn how to tie knots or learn how to adjust a drag or both. No hate just truth.
Great marketing though👍
You’re totally right about the drag comment… a properly set drag should make sure that no fish is lost due to the line/knot breaking.
The situations where a knot’s strength being fully maximized are 1) when we have to stop a big fish away from the structure it’s swimming towards and 2) when we get snagged on the bottom and have to force it out by pulling on the line to either power it off or break the line.
As for the comment about the line breaking before the knots, are you saying that your line is consistently breaking away from your knots? If so, could you please let us know what lines you’re using along with the knots you’re using?
I have had that happen on some occasions, but the point where almost all breaks happen is right at the top of the knot as the line is going in and making its first hard turn.
We’re on the verge of how do you hold your mouth when you cast?
Mouth closed seems to get the best results:)
I hate to admit this but my first experience with tying leaders was using sections of cat gut tied together with barrel knots. We kept the cat gut and finished leaders soaked in water. When we switched to monofilament, my father started putting saliva on the knot to keep it from melting/softening as he drew the knot up tight. It became habit with all types of knots. I’ve been doing that for almost 70 years. Not anymore.
I still think that some knots can benefit from saliva. More tests will be done to determine which ones those are.
Thanks Luke, who would have guessed.
I’m glad to see that you enjoyed this first test into saliva cinch for knots… more tests coming soon.
While a stab in the dark, this might be the article you remember . . . https://flylifemagazine.com/tips-tactics-dont-wet-line-before-seating-a-knot.
I found the variability in the results regardless of whether wet or dry interesting. From watching you diligently tie knots over time and given how many you tie, my guess is your knot strength is better than the occasional fisherman. I think this argues to use the easiest to tie knots unless a more complicated knot is clearly proven to be stronger. Another thought is whether some knots that have many coils such as main line to leader connections might have more friction where a lubricant might be useful.
Your inquisitive mind is a real asset. Keep up the good work!
Thanks so much for sending over that link!!!
Yes, I think you’re right about the knots with many coils being the ones that could most likely benefit from saliva. I’ll be sure to put some popular ones like the uni knot and the blood knot to the test to see how they do.
Hey Luke thank you again. Wasn’t quite the last 2 minutes of a NCAA Sweet 16 playoff but still held my attetion to the end since I actually use both methods. Really do appreciate it.
Haha! Glad to see that you were able to power through the long video.
Luke,
Although I appreciate you trying to be scientific, but let me tell you as a Ph.D. scientist, your methods are not really totally scientific.
First of all, you need to learn and understand statistics — or have someone who does — to analyze your results. The high variability of ALL of your results amost surely, if properly analyzed statistically, offer no evidence as to which treatment (saliva, versus dry) has a higher breaking strength. In order to really come to a conclusion, you would have to do many more tests of each treatment.
Scientifically, a test should control all the variables. A major variable in breaking strenght is the rate at which the load is applied. It was clearly noticeable that in your tests, sometimes you cranked that apparatus faster than other times. If you want to control that variable, you neeed to do something like use a constant rate motor to turn that crank…and hold the other end the same way…not in your hand that shifts around.
More importantly and practically to fishermen, the idea of using saliva to lubricate the knot was based on knots with many turns that have to slide together and down against the line. Improved cinch knots and regular cinch knots are where the idea was developed.
When a cinch knot is tied (and how it is tied matters a lot…particularly how fast it is tightened), the saliva acts as a lubricant that reduces abrasion between the line and the sliding turns. It is even possible to tie a cinch knot, with the turns far from the hook, and pull it down very fast, and visually see the abrasion on the line against which the turns slid down.
That loop knot with only two turns is very different. The loops do not really slide down the line, and the chance for abrasion during such sliding is very limited.
So, I am afraid that you may have given fishermen some bad information by your little bit of testing. Fishermen should NOT use your video to conclude that they should not lubricate their multi-turn knots, like cinch, improved cinch, and uni, in mono or fluorocarbon.
Maybe you can use these suggestions to do really meaningful tests, but please don’t misinform with tests that seem scientific, but really are not really scientific.
Randy Edwards, Ph.D. (Marine Science), B.E. (Engineering)
Thanks for making time to leave the helpful comment Randy. I totally agree that this test is far from being conclusive about which method of cinching knots is best.
This first dip into the subject was to at least start the discussion. As you surely read in the post, here’s the core conclusion that I deducted from this particular experiment given how few knots were tested:
“Of course, this is a small sample size in just three rounds of testing each, so we can’t say definitely whether one is better than the other, but I believe it’s safe to say that saliva is at least not a necessity like it used to be.”
The reason I used these knots for these particular lines is because those are the most popular knots that our members use to tie to terminal tackle. And I filmed it all so that everyone can see exactly what was done to be able to deduct their own conclusions based on the steps that were taken.
I’ll be sure to do some tests on knots that have more turns with a larger sample size to get some more conclusive results.
If you or any other scientist performs any tests like this with better tools and procedures, please let me know because I’d be thrilled to promote the more conclusive results… I’m just doing the best I can with the resources that I have.
Just an additional thought regarding saliva Luke, didn’t you recently have some information on fish sense Of smell and I believe saliva was detrimental To the bite. Maybe another reason why saliva should be retired when tying knots?
Here’s a link to the scent study: https://www.saltstrong.com/articles/underwater-scents-that-attract-repel-fish/
In that study, human saliva actually was a positive scent which was very surprising.
The video was very interesting. Would like to see your response to the scientist’s points. Keep up the good work.
I have replied to all comments that have come in so far.
I normally tie my knots dry. I will wet a multi turn knot like an FG knot. A 1 to 2 # difference in breaking strength doesn’t matter much to me. I try to give enough drag so the knot doesn’t break on a load and retie if there is any abrasion on the knot.
Thanks for making time to leave the comment! Yes, a properly set drag should make sure that no fish is lost due to the line breaking. The situations where a knot’s strength being fully maximized are 1) when we have to stop a big fish from getting into structure and 2) when we get snagged on the bottom and have to force it out by pulling on the line to either power it off or break the line.
Using saliva (lubricant) allows the knot to be made tighter which would make the knot weaker. Small sampler size can skew the data, Great video.
Guess I can stop ‘tasting’ my knots!!! LOL
Haha!
Have you considered testing no lubricate (no saliva), saliva only, and finally completely immersed in water before tightening? I’m interested in saliva versus water results.
I have not considered that. Is that something that you do when tying knots?
Please correct me if I’m wrong because I’m no scientist but my understanding is that because you have to apply the pressure yourself this creates a potentially substantial inconsistent variable. For example, if you apply a more rapid pressure then you would end up with a different result than if you slowly apply pressure. This is why the IGFA line testing videos use a machine that fully conducts the tests with the inputs of an employee on a computer. I am all for these tests but I feel like the way that you’re doing this can be misleading because of the one detail of using your arm to apply pressure. Just a thought, would love to hear what you think
I agree, there needs to be consistency in speed of how the pressure is applied, the length of the line tested, how it is attached to the base (should be solid) and the amount of soak time. Still interesting.
I totally agree that the accuracy of any test like this would benefit from computerized tools for keeping as many variables as possible totally consistent.
All I can do without such tools is to try to keep the human element variables as consistent as I can. And I’ll continue filming the results so that everyone can see exactly how the tests were conducted to form their own conclusions.
I personally trust these tests because I feel confident that I’m keeping the human element as controlled as possible… surely much less human error than what is realized in real life because I’m tying each knot slowly to keep them as consistent as possible and I’m making a big effort to pull the lines at a constant rate while the fish we’re fighting are pulling at completely non-consistent rates.
Three issues.
Need to tie knots dry as you would at home, then soak them.
A good gob facilitates pulling up the tag end.
Too much tension here causes the line to cut itself.
Amnesia is very poor in this area.
Fluoro carbons generally prefer less turns and are very easy to overtighten.
For 20lb mono I would wrap 5 turns, loop back and then wrap four more turns under the loop.
This is a Grinner and must be lubricated to snug up. Do not overtighten the tag end.
11lb line 6 and 5. 35lb line 4 and 3.
50lb crimp.
To an eye.
0ne turn if metal thicker than the mono.
Two turns mono thicker than the metal.
When crimping, use a Flemish twist.
Rgds.
Malcolm Hayward.
A more decisive issue is that when on the water, putting a line in your mouth can expose you to water borne infections.
Flob over it.
Great video, Luke. The fact that there was even a suspicion of a difference is validation enough for this experiment. Now, next should be the risk of line breakage between the zig-zag fighting of, say, a Jack, as opposed to the steadier pull of a Black Drum! ; )
Thanks for making time to leave the nice comment William. I have done some tests with different speeds of applying tension, and although the breaking points differ, the knot that was stronger during the slow tension was also the winner during the quick tension. So I think the risk of getting broken off due to a sharp pull from a fish is more about the reel’s drag and the rod’s bend to protect the line from breaking.
Good stuff, saliva for the attracting sent trail only.
I fish with six pound mono, tied with a uni knot 90% of the time. I test the line/knot strength with each tie. If I don’t lube the knot/line I experience failure, and can see the line stress, then cuss myself for being in a hurry. LOL
Thanks for making time to leave the helpful comment Jeff! I’ll be sure to do this test with the uni knot to see how it does.
Very interesting info Luke, thanks. On your slip knot I see you used 2 turns, would the same knot with 3 turns be stronger? I have always used 3 turns with great results . Thanks
I have to assume so, but I’m not sure. That’s something worth testing so I’ll add it to my list.
since the saliva scent attracts fish, maybe it would be best to spit on knots AFTER they are tied.
Haha! I was wondering why they even tested saliva, but I assume they did due to how many fishermen wet their lines before cinching down their knots.
I’ve found fluorocarbon knots to be very inconsistent.. some break easily while I’m surprised at the strength of the same knot on the same line, as my knots are tied constantly the same..
I use chapstick lip balm because it reduces friction and line curl. I also fish in an urban river that is so harsh that my 6 month old braided line needs to be replaced already; it has faded and breaks at the knot when I get deeply snagged. No way I am putting anything that had been in that river in my mouth.
And the balm doesn’t deter the fish.
Jose
Don’t laugh Luke but a trick I picked up years ago from the local salmon fishermen in Alaska and still use whether I’m fishing for salmon in Alaska or fishing for inshore species here in Florida, is to put a drop of “personal” lubricant on the knots before cinching them down (works like magic) and then wiping the knot dry and placing a drop of “knot glue” or superglue on the knot to prevent it from coming undone. Maybe it’s been luck but I’ve never had a knot break in all of my years using this method.
Hi Luke,
What a surprise on the dry/wet knots.
Thanks.
Now do a video on how the break a 70 year habit.
Keep up the good work.
John Higgins
You guys should think about getting some women’s sunglasses and gear there’s a lot of us out here and men’s sizes are most of the time a little to big.
Just a thought love all the other New stuff
M. Jenkins
Thanks for making time to send in the suggestion. If this first round of glasses sell quickly, we’ll definitely be adding more of a selection.
Do you think that with saliva you are allowing the knot to fully seat as opposed to pulling the knot dry ? Or are you buying yourself time or strength buy pulling the knot until it fully seats when cinched down dry.
I’m not sure… here’s the best explanation that I’ve come across so far (beware of the “liar knot”): https://flylifemagazine.com/tips-tactics-dont-wet-line-before-seating-a-knot/
Luke, I always enjoy the tests that you do on knot strength. A couple of things I noted during this report. As others have mentioned the high degree of variability between knots both dry and wet would indicate that statistically no conclusion could be drawn. My question is why is there so much variability in the first place. Since modern lines are high quality and very consistent that would suggest that the variation might be related to how they are being tied. I know you have probably tied the loop knot a couple of thousand times so there should be a fairly high degree of consistency but I wonder… One of the things I noticed in the test video and also the one for tying the knot is that you never pull the tag end when tightening the knot. Just the running line and the lure. Is it possible that the knot is not being seated consistently? When I tie this knot, it always cinches down tighter when the tag end is tightened against the running line as well. That of course leads to the next question… could over tightening possibly be a cause for weakening the knot. You might want to test this by using the strain gauge to determine how much force you use when tightening the knot and see if pulling harder actually has an effect on knot strength. I’d love to do it but don’t have the necessary toys..
Great questions Mark! The high degree of variability seems to not just be isolated to the non-slip loop knot because the uni knot with the braid was very different too. I’ve seen this in other tests too, so I think the variation is pretty standard for all of us given how many moving parts there are when cinching the knots down.
What about a test to see if there is a correlation of knot strength to the amount of twists and loops for the braid to mono/flouro knots? I’ve been using an Alberto knot with just 3 twists out and back in. I have used 2 twists and my own unscientific testing was to hook a lure to something and pull like I was fighting a fish. I couldn’t get the knot to break. It would be interesting to know if there is a substantial difference.
There is definitely a difference in knot strength when it comes to twists (especially for braid line)… for the alberto knot, I recommend at least 5 twists up and then another 5 back.
Saliva will do nothing for low twist knots. I personally use a 5 wrap loop knot. I think you will find that the extra lubrication lowers the line temp at cinch causing less line heat and thinning. Maybe you should try it with the knots with multiple twists? Just a hypothesis.
What a quandary? Saliva will lure in fish but will make your knots a little weaker?…Sike! Spit away folks, there’s nothing to worry about.
Great coverage. Now, I can keep the fish taste on the line.